Jill Brook: [00:00:00] Hello, fellow mast cell patients and beautiful people who care about mast cell patients. I'm Jill Brook, and today the amazing Dr. Tania Dempsey, world renowned physician, researcher, and expert on complex chronic illness, including MCAS, is going to continue answering the most common listener question we've been getting lately, which is can you tell us more about the advanced therapies you are using at your clinic?

This is a part two, so check out episode 288 for part one if you haven't heard it yet. In that episode, she discussed therapeutic plasmapheresis exchange or apheresis, SOT, ozone therapy, and UV light blood irradiation. And there are still more treatments to discuss today. So Dr. Dempsey, thank you so much for being here.

Dr. Tania Dempsey: Oh, I'm excited to be here. I love talking about all this stuff with you.

Jill Brook: So people have asked about a lot of the treatments that they've been hearing about in various places that you are using, and they're [00:01:00] wondering how successful are they on people with MCAS and related diseases. What are the pros and cons, risks, benefits, anything you wanna share. And maybe we can just start with one that comes up frequently, which is red light therapy. What is that and what do you use it for?

Dr. Tania Dempsey: Yeah. So, you know, there's a lot of buzz on social media about red light therapy right now. And there are different devices that can be used on different parts of the body or the whole body. I did wanna mention that I have a whole blog post on my website dedicated to talking about red light therapy and my thoughts related to mast activation syndrome specifically.

So if anybody wants to check out that blog that's gonna go into, you know, greater depth. But you know, I guess, you know, the way I would think about it is that we know that there are different spectrums of light and they do different things to our [00:02:00] body. Most of the red light machines out there are a combination of red light mixed with near infrared light. And what we know is that red light maybe doesn't penetrate quite as deep through the skin and near infrared penetrates a little bit, a little bit further. So they have different wavelengths and, and the combination seems to be what we're, we're trying to achieve.

And that is that they can have some really incredible results. And actually a lot of this is published. One of the, one of the exciting things about red light therapy is that there are lots of research studies showing it. Now, not specifically with MCAS, but just red light therapy for various conditions, which I think is exciting, right, 'cause we really do want to, to have some research supporting its use, that it's not just one of those like crazy things that people are telling you to do. [00:03:00] So in our office we have a red light bed which is nice because you can lay on it, it's very relaxing, and you get the benefit of basically having the red light surround your whole body.

You know, again, in the market they have, you know, red light hats you could use for hair loss. They have panels that you can sit in front of. And there are a lot of good products out there. There are also a lot of products that are not great. So you do have to do a little, little research and make sure you're getting the the exact spectrums of wavelengths that you, that you want.

But, you know, the, the thought is that what red light therapy does is that it basically promotes healing and rejuvenation at the cellular level. You know, when you expose the skin to the the red light and the near infrared light, you get a penetration through the skin, the energy is absorbed by the cells, absorbed by mitochondria in the cells, and that sort of activates [00:04:00] it and it allows the mitochondria to actually produce more energy.

It allows and enhances the cell's ability to heal and regenerate. There's some research to show that it might boost, not might but probably does, boost collagen production. Which you know, is really important for many of our patients who have connective tissue issues.

And may help actually in increase the production of nitric oxide. And, and ultimately control inflammation. So that's sort of like a gist of like what red light can, can do. What, what I see in my practice is that I think that there are some key things that we see in terms of, of improvements. On the, on just the skin level, you know, we've had, we have had patients and even staff members who have seen you know, improvements in, let's say acne and eczema. Those are, those are two areas that we frequently see. Again, [00:05:00] that's more superficial. On a deeper level, the other thing that we see it being very helpful for is sleep.

Because it does sort of, again, help the body heal. And, and even though it may provide some energy production afterwards, ultimately it actually can enhance sleep and sort of restoration at night, which is a, which is a big issue for a lot of patients with Mast Cell Activation Syndrome, with Lyme disease, stress in general, right? Sleep is, is the thing that we, we need probably more than anything else. And so, I love using red light therapy for, especially for people who are struggling with sleep.

Jill Brook: Does it matter what time of day you do the red light therapy if you want it to help your sleep, or it helps whenever you do it?

Dr. Tania Dempsey: It kind of helps whenever, which is really interesting. And it's an accumulative effect. So what I say to people is that, you know, you can do one [00:06:00] session and you may see some benefit, initially. You might just feel more relaxed. You certainly feel warmth. You know, especially in the winter here it's cold, like being in a red light bed is actually really nice.

It kind of warms me up. But, but certainly if you do additional sessions and we tell patients two to three times a week would be a really nice number because again, the, the effects are cumulative, and over time, the cells then get what they need to repair, to make energy, and then to, to help heal. Again, when I talk about Mast Cell Activation Syndrome, I always talk about, you know, inflammation is the hallmark feature of Mast Cell Activation Syndrome, and that's a hallmark feature of aging, it's the hallmark feature of just about every chronic disease. And what I find with red light therapy is that it can be very, very helpful in, in reducing inflammation at least feeling the effects of inflammation.

What I haven't done yet, which would be [00:07:00] really cool, is to do post-treatment measurements of things like c-reactive protein and SED rate to prove that there's, you know, reduction of inflammation. But the problem is that a lot of mast cell patients don't have markers in the blood that show inflammation, but they definitely are inflamed.

So I, we haven't figured that out yet how to really study that. But I do think most patients will comment, you know, especially if they have a like a musculoskeletal complaint, having, having back pain or they're having, you know, some specific thing and they get in the red light bed and if they do a few sessions of it, they start to notice that there's, you know, improvement and less pain.

So it's a really great tool again, for, for chronic pain and also for acute pain and healing. So I, it's kind of, I think it's a great tool. Again, there are lots of home units and ways to do it at home. Again, I, what I love about the [00:08:00] bed is that, again, not everyone has access to my office, but if you're around, you have to come and try it because it's 12 minutes of, of lying in the bed.

Now, what we do for the really sensitive patients, because I know there're gonna be people listening and saying, oh my gosh, you know, the sun is, I'm really sensitive to sun, or I'm really sensitive to, to lights. You know, how will I handle it? So this is not on the UV index of like sun. So it's a different wavelength. So what I would say is that most people who are really sensitive to sun don't notice the same sensitivity with red light or near infrared. But having said that, the, the machine that we have, has the ability to turn down the, the heat level, 'cause that's the other part of it, right, a lot of patients with MCAS are heat sensitive. So you can actually, we have a fan blowing on you if you want, you know, if you want to keep it cool, but you [00:09:00] can set the intensity of the light so that you can actually you know, kind of ease into it. So I'll give you an example. I think like a lot of, a lot of patients without MCAS can get into the red light and have it at an intensity. The red light, by the way, is not the problem. It's the near infrared that's hotter. Red light is actually not that hot, but the near infrared can get a little bit warm. And so like there's some people who can have it at an intensity of 60% or 70%. But I might put an MCAS patient in at like 20% or 15%, and I might do it, okay, maybe we don't do it for 12 minutes, maybe we do it for four minutes or something. And so we're, again, we're just easing into it. We see how you feel, we see how your body responds to it, and then, you know, we can incrementally increase.

But I find that MCAS patients actually do quite well with it when we do it that way. And even, even [00:10:00] really sensitive patients seem to, to really thrive on it and find that it's very helpful. The other thing that we love about it is that because it warms the body up, it helps with circulation, it helps with the release of nitric oxide, it does all these things, if patients do it before they're about to get an IV, whether it's plasmapheresis or some other IV, their veins pop. Especially the, the patients who have like no veins and they always say, we have these patients who come in and like, they have a tiny one on their hand. It's the only one we can use, you know. It's either from being stuck a lot or they just really don't have great veins. And then they do the red light and it's like magic. And all of a sudden their veins are popping and now, you know, the nurse can, or the medical assistants can, can have access to the vein. So patients actually really love it now, and we kind of get into the routine of, they get into the red light bed, and then we, you know, either have to draw blood or do an IV or something else. So it's actually been really nice. And our plasmapheresis [00:11:00] nurses who also work in some other offices, they love that we have the red light, because they just say, you know, I, before we stick anybody, we want them in the red light first, then doing plasmapheresis. And it's worked out really, really well.

Jill Brook: I heard you mention that once before, and I've been doing that lately and I love it. It works so well. And I also have to say the thing that I notice most about the red light, I am a believer, and I don't even have access to one as nice as yours. But I have one that you have to sit in front of and then, you know, change positions if you want your front done and your back done.

But even with that, I do notice that it brings my MCAS down a notch. And when I had COVID is when I noticed it the most, is that my breathing would get clearer within the 10 minutes that I sat in front of it just then. So that really turned me into a believer that I, I can tell it's doing something and and so I, I, I just think it's one of those things where it seems like there's no downside, right, is there any, any risk to it [00:12:00] or?

Dr. Tania Dempsey: You know, again, not really. If, if heat is an issue, and I think it's a little bit easier with the panels of course, 'cause you're sitting in front of it, you could probably pull back a little bit. You can control the temperature better. The bed, you know, we have to adjust it. There are people I think, who are sensitive to any kind of light on the spectrum, you know, the wavelength spectrum.

So, you know, but I think that's still fairly rare, but I guess it's possible, right? I think that from the bed perspective, I mean, there are just people who, you know, if they're very, if they're obese, it's gonna be really uncomfortable to be in that in the bed, but not in front of a panel. Or really, really thin and kind of bony lying on this kind of glass plated bed might be a little bit uncomfortable.

But, but other than that honestly, we've not really seen you know, any, any issues which is, which is, you know, what I, what I really love about it. [00:13:00] And, yeah, I'm a, I'm a big fan too. Personally I love it and I don't get in in it enough 'cause I've been so busy. But this week I made a, made it a point to get in two days in a row.

And I have to tell you, like, I'm stressed and I honestly haven't been sleeping well, just 'cause there's a lot on my mind. But after the second one, I, I had such a good night's sleep that night. I was like, oh my gosh, I really have to, I have to do this more often.

Jill Brook: That's great. Okay, so that one sounds like, yeah, the, the risks sound quite minimal, so that's exciting.

Dr. Tania Dempsey: Yeah. And there are things that we combine it with and, and I do have a blog post on that too. Where you know, for people, let's say who we are trying to treat either really severe mitochondrial dysfunction or infection, we'll say, okay, like, Lyme disease, Babesia, Bartonella, there's a drug called methylene blue that we use quite frequently in both of those [00:14:00] instances. At a lower doses for mitochondria and at higher doses for killing.

But it turns out that when this methylene blue drug is combined with red light and photo modulation, it increases, its its effectiveness. So it actually, 'cause I said red light is good for the mitochondria and methylene blue is good for the mitochondria. And so together it's like that light actually activates it.

And from a killing perspective, you know, there's some studies that show it was all in vitro in a, you know, in a Petri dish, essentially, not in humans, but you know, there's some suggestion that the light activates the methylene blue to allow it to, to have a better effect on killing the various organisms.

So for patients who I have on, you know, treatments including methylene blue, I encourage them to use red light as well, because that's a really great combo.

Jill Brook: Wow. Okay, so this is sort of a good segue. Should you say more about methylene blue?

Dr. Tania Dempsey: [00:15:00] Sure. I've done a, a few posts on it. I think I definitely have a blog post or two even on methylene blue. So again, if, if anyone wants to read more and do a deeper dive. Methylene blue is a really interesting compound. It's, it's blue and it is a dye. Okay. So, you know, that already may be a red flag for a lot of people. But it, it does have some really interesting properties. And you know, like I said, one of the properties is, is on the mitochondria. And so at low doses, it can be helpful in increasing the mitochondrial efficiency, increasing energy production. And that's, that's like low doses five milligrams, 10 milligrams.

Something's a little higher, depends on the person. And for killing, we're using, you know, could be 50 milligrams, a hundred milligrams, 200 milligrams, depends on what, what protocols we're using. And typically, I like compounded. There is a company that makes a very good [00:16:00] quality methylene blue product that is commercially available.

And I have a page with resources, products I love on my website, and I do have a link there for the methylene blue. So that's a troche. So we can turn your mouth blue. When we compound it, we compound it into capsules, and that's a little bit easier for people. They don't have to worry about the blue thing. But that was like really hip, you know, I don't know, a, a few months ago, a year ago, everybody wanted a blue mouth. I, you know, I think RFK was shown like having a blue tongue, right? And everybody was like, oh, you know, methylene blue. But again, methylene blue has some really interesting effects, again combined with red light, and I do have that blog talking about that.

But again, as an antimicrobial, it's kind of really interesting and it's been shown when combined with several other antibiotics, not only antibiotics, but they're drugs that have some ability to kill. They're repurposed drugs, a lot of them. It's really been [00:17:00] shown to help with killing the infections that are persistent.

A lot of these infections, particularly Lyme, Bartonella, are hard to kill. We know that. They go into a state of, that's called the stationary phase. So just to back up a little bit, in order to kill bacteria or things like that they have to be multiplying for, let's say, an antibiotic to work.

That's how antibiotics work. They actually try to hijack the cell, the organism while it's multiplying. It stops it from multiplying and then they die. And that's like if you're trying to kill strep throat. That's how penicillin works. That's how a lot of antibiotics work. But Lyme, Bartonella, those types of organisms, they, when, when they're exposed to a lot of antibiotics, or even herbs sometimes, they go into a phase where they stop multiplying. It's called stationary. And they're hibernating, but they're like still wreaking [00:18:00] havoc on the, on the immune system.

So it's sort of a bad combo, and there's not a lot of things that can help, can, can work on that. And methylene blue is one of the drugs that has been shown in combination with several other drugs to actually kill, you know, quote unquote kill, you know, or reduce the counts of these persister cells.

So, so that's what what everyone's been kind of excited about. And so we often use it in combination with other, other drugs. It has some other very interesting properties too when we use some of these other drugs. So it can be kind of preventative in preventing some of the side effects that we see.

You can't use methylene blue if you're on any kind of antidepressant 'cause it can interact. It's an MAO inhibitor. MAO inhibitors are frequently used for depression and various psychiatric disorders. But you can't combine it with like, a Zoloft, Prozac, you know, SSRI, [00:19:00] SNRI.

Any of those drugs should not be combined with it. So we always have to screen. There may be other drugs that have some interaction. So not everyone is a candidate for it. But but yeah, it's interesting. We also give it intravenously. And especially for people who, you know, maybe there's an absorption problem. Maybe we're not getting, the methylene blue is not getting absorbed into the system. What we'll do is we'll give them IV methylene blue, and then put them in the red light bed right away.

Jill Brook: Okay.

Dr. Tania Dempsey: That's a really, really cool, like, that's, that's a cool protocol that we're really excited about. And that has been you know, a game changer for, for some people. What else to mention about methylene blue?

It does turn your pee blue, well actually green 'cause it combines with yellow. So it's a little disconcerting for some people when they urinate. And I've had some people, depending on the dosage it can be a little [00:20:00] irritating to the bladder. And so for people with interstitial cystitis, sometimes methylene blue is not the best thing for them because it irritates the bladder even more.

And and so like again, for the select MCAS patient who has more of the bladder issues, it may not be great. Or if you try it, you definitely wanna try it like the lowest possible dosage to see how your body reacts, 'cause again, the dye has to go through the system and it gets into your bladder and then you pee it out.

But you know, honestly, really, I don't see that as often as, you know, I, I would think. So that's, that's methylene blue.

Jill Brook: Wow, that's so interesting that it can be used in all those different ways, in different dosing and modalities. Wow. Very cool. Okay. Anything more to say about that one, or should I go to the next one on the list?

Dr. Tania Dempsey: Yeah, let's keep going. We have a lot to talk about.

Jill Brook: I don't know if I'm pronouncing this one correctly. But people have asked about NanoVi.

Dr. Tania Dempsey: Yeah. That's correct. NanoVi. So I was first [00:21:00] introduced to this this unit at a biohacking conference. Actually it was Dave Asprey's biohacking conference. And I'm very critical. I'll start that way, right? While I have a lot of these different modalities and technologies in my office, I mean, everyone should know that I've, I will not bring anything in until I've tried it myself, until I can convince my, myself, my family, everyone, we're all guinea pigs. Because I really wanna understand the science first, and then I also want to, you know, make sure that it's safe and that I, you know, that it makes sense for my patients.

So this is one where I was a little skeptical and I tried it. So, you know, let's say I was at the conference for three days. I tried it on the first day, and I, and I'll explain the technology, but I'll just say that I did this, this like a 15 minute treatment. And then like a few hours later I was like, wow, I kind of feel good, but it's probably placebo, [00:22:00] 'cause I, I, you know, I'm a little, I'm suggestible. So I'm like, oh, do I feel better? I don't know. So the next day I went back. And, and, and the background, I'll give a little background. The hotel I think was a little moldy. So the longer I was there, the, the more I was like, yeah, I feel like the mold is bothering me a little bit.

I'm definitely sensitive to mold. So it was starting to bother me a little bit. It wasn't horrible, but I knew that it was something was there. Not the whole hotel, but definitely where the conference was taking place. And you know, we're spending eight to 10 hours there. So like the next day I'm like, ah, you know, I can feel the mold a little bit.

I'm doing all my stuff to, to, to detox. But I did this again for another 15 minutes. And actually I was like, can I do it longer? Like, what happens if I do it longer? And they're like, yeah, you know, I don't think you need to, but if you wanna try it. So I think I did it for like 30 minutes. And then a few hours later I was like, yeah, actually, like, that's like the only thing that actually moved the needle for me while I've been here.[00:23:00]

And then the third day was the last day. And I went in and I, I did it again and then I was like, oh my God, I've gotta buy this from my office, because it's like really incredible. And so I talked to the owner, I read their papers 'cause they published a lot, a lot of research, which is really, really exciting.

And I think really it kind of got its start in sort of, I think the fitness world. But I think it definitely, you know, has expanded. I think it has a lot of utility in, in our world. And so basically it's a machine that takes distilled water and puts it through this mechanism that turns the water into, into what's called structured water. And you breathe it in. So basically there's an attachment and you either wear a little like nasal cannula or there's a little arm that you don't even have to put a nasal cannula, you can just breathe in through the arm. And and what they've shown is that [00:24:00] what the structured order does is it actually helps with protein folding, which is an important mechanism for cellular repair. And so what it basically does, the way I think about it, is that it, it sort of protects the body from damage and it also helps the body heal. So what they showed with this device is that the body was able to make more glutathione on its own.

So the difference between something like this and like some of the IVs I do, or you know, other, other modalities, you know, some things we do, we are giving you something, we're giving you, let's say glutathione through an IV, or we're giving you vitamin C through an IV. This is actually helping the body make more, allowing the body to work more efficiently to make it on its own so that you don't need to actually be taking in extra. So I love that [00:25:00] concept of like allowing the body to, to do the healing and giving it the things that it, that it, you know, it needs. So that's sort of how it works. So it's super easy. You just sit there and like, breathe it, breathe this in. You don't feel anything while you're doing it. But they you know, they've shown improved recovery after, you know, certain athletic events.

And they've shown increased VO2 max. You know, and then anecdotally one of the speakers there at the conference mentioned he just, he wrote a book and he mentioned that he actually wore this device, you know, you really only need it for 15 minutes with the professional unit that we have.

There are home units that you need to be attached a little longer. But he wore it like all day while he was writing his book and found that it helped his, you know, his cognitive function. And that's what excited me because I keep thinking about all my patients that really have, you know, a lot of MCAS patients, [00:26:00] Lyme patients, mold patients have cognitive dysfunction on some level, difficulty concentrating, memory, word recall.

There's all these things, right? So I thought, wow, and this, and this guy has a known history of traumatic brain injuries and he, he knows that he has some specific challenges and so he was using it to overcome those challenges to write his book. And that kind of sold me after I had tried it myself, and then I saw what others were using it for.

It, it made sense to, to try it. So what I did first is I brought it to the office and, you know, the staff started using it and I started using it. And I started just using it at the end of the day, every day while I was doing my notes, I would just sit there and, and, and breathe it in. And, you know, similarly I would find a, a little bit more energy, especially maybe not immediately, but like later in the day. Or I would sleep better. It's another one that also, especially [00:27:00] if I combine that with red light, it's like, oh my God, it's like heaven for me. But but after a long day, you know, I have to, I'm still working and I thought, oh, you know, let's try this. And this seems to really help. The patients are liking it. And what I, what I often do with patients is that if they're getting another treatment, they're getting ozone, they're sitting there doing something, well, you know, we'll hook them up to this too, 'cause it's easy, they're sitting there anyway. And the patients are saying that they feel clearer. Certainly the IV is also doing something, but they notice a, a difference. It's almost like it's improving the ability for the, for the other treatment to work better, which makes sense because that's what it's meant to do.

But it's it is a little bit kind of confusing mechanism of action and, and it's hard to explain. I find this is, this is the one piece that I find like, you know, it's a little bit, out there. Structured water, right, is not like a thing that a lot of people talk about. And protein folding and all these other things [00:28:00] is a little bit esoteric, but but when you look at the, their studies that they've published, it really is pretty impressive.

And then again, we're seeing some really great results in the office, so I'm excited about it. So we've been, we've been using it now for yeah, about six, seven months.

Jill Brook: Okay. Yeah. And the part that they've proven about the increased glutathione that would translate into fighting inflammation?

Dr. Tania Dempsey: Yeah. Yeah. So glutathione is the best, the mother antioxidant in the body. The liver makes it. All the cells make it. And what we know is that certain drugs, certain conditions, infections deplete the body of glutathione. By the way, Tylenol or acetaminophen depletes the body of glutathione.

That's one that is known. And and, and maybe that's the link to some of the things that people are talking about. I'm not gonna go there, but, but I do think that depleting glutathione is not [00:29:00] good because again, it's your own natural way of, of detoxing. And, and again, like, combating free radicals and things that are, are damaging to the body.

So I look at increasing glutathione naturally as a way of helping the body heal, reduce inflammation, fight infection. And the thing is that there are some patients, our mast cell patients, who don't do well with supplemental glutathione. Glutathione is a sulfur type compound. Now, having a sulfur allergy, I get this question all the time, if you're allergic to like a sulfur drug, like Bactrim, that's different from sulfur in the, in the glutathione. It's a different compound, so it's not contraindicated. But there are just some people who are, who are sensitive to sulfur in general. And, and some people with SIBO have a hard time taking glutathione orally because it kind of feeds the, [00:30:00] the hydrogen sulfide bacteria in the gut.

So having the body make its own is always better than having to take something, you know, internally. So that's what I think is really cool. But that's just one of the many things that it seems to be able to do.

Jill Brook: Well, I'm excited to look into that one because this term structured water keeps popping up in a lot of different areas, and I'm still kind of, I'm, I'm not great at physics, and so I'm still trying to kind of understand it better. But my understanding is that it's kind of like the way water used to be when it was in nature, when you were getting your water out of a stream or out of a waterfall. It would have some slightly different properties than we typically would see and when it's coming out of like your city water nowadays. And so that's something I'm still learning about, but I'm intrigued and it's, it's exciting that it's been it's been verified with some, some studies, so I'm, I'm excited to go read about those.[00:31:00]

Dr. Tania Dempsey: Yeah. Yeah.

Jill Brook: Wow. Okay, cool. Well, thank you for finding these things. Okay, I can already tell we're gonna probably need a part three of this episode because we have a lot things left on our list.

Dr. Tania Dempsey: Okay. Okay. I'm good with that.

Jill Brook: The next one, and maybe this will be our last one because I, I don't know how big of a topic this is because this one's my kind of like just a category of peptides.

Dr. Tania Dempsey: Okay. Peptides. Yeah, that's a good, that's a good question. So the GLP-1 drugs, receptor agonists, you know, Wegovy, Ozempic, Mounjaro, Zepbound, and then we have some new ones coming down the pike. Those are, those are peptides. So they fall in this category. I did a masterclass on that, so if anyone wants to like, listen to that, there was like a lot of information about mechanism, how it works, how we use it. But you know, peptides are basically like really small [00:32:00] proteins. There's there, there are a small number of amino acids that are combined. Some, some of these peptides are naturally found in the body and some of them are synthetic, but based on certain hormones in the body or certain other compounds in the body that we wanna sort of replicate or, or kind of achieve a similar effect from.

So, so peptides are, again, broad category. Again, we have our GLP-1s in one, one camp, and then we have, we have peptides for inflammation. We have peptides for growth hormone related things, we have peptides for the immune system. Those are like general, general categories, but obviously there are like little ones in, in between.

You know, probably the, the easiest one to start with especially for MCAS [00:33:00] patients would be something called BPC 1 57 which stands for Body Protective Compound 1 57, BPC. It is actually a naturally occurring compound in our body. Mostly in the, in the GI tract. It can be taken orally and it can be given in an injection form.

The oral formulation seems to be helpful in healing inflammation in the gut. So it is very often used for, we'll call it, you know, gut issues. You know, so I think about, you know, MCAS patients who have issues with food intolerances, you know, issues with bloating and diarrhea or constipation. There are a lot of symptoms that patients experience. I would never say that this is the miracle peptide in any way. It's not gonna fix everything. But it can be a very nice adjunct to other things that we're [00:34:00] doing. And so I think some patients have found that to be helpful.

Again, in addition to all the other work that we're, we're doing. It's not specifically a mast cell stabilizer but it does have some of this anti-inflammatory properties. As an injection, it still may have an effect on the gut. Certainly if you swallow it, right, the thought is that you're, it's going into the gut and it's helping directly.

The injection seems to also have an effect on the gut, but may have a more systemic effect. And so BPC is often used for healing, like connective tissue issues. It's often used for injuries. And athletes are known to, to use this a lot for healing. Although for athletes who are like D1 athletes in, in colleges or professional, it is one of the drugs that's listed as banned from from use.

Jill Brook: So it must really work.

Dr. Tania Dempsey: Right. So you think about it. No, that's exactly right. Why would they ban it if it didn't work, right? So I [00:35:00] love using it, you know, again, for a variety of things. When I, when we do the injections often, I'll combine it with a, another peptide called Thymosin Beta 500 or Thymosin Beta 4. They have different names. It's essentially the same thing. And it's a, it's a peptide that is from the, from the thymus gland, which is a gland that makes a number of different peptides and, and helps the immune system. It's larger in kids and shrinks as you get older.

So, you know, as you get older, your immune system actually gets worse and worse. And part of it's because the thymus actually shrinks. So this thymus peptide has been shown to work synergistically with BPC 1 57. And, and the way they work together is they decrease inflammation. TB 500 actually also increases something called the angiogenesis. So it allows blood flow to go to the area of [00:36:00] injury. It can have some antiviral properties, which is how I often use it as well. And and that is, there is a formulation available orally of that peptide that we sell. But, but some people, again, prefer injection. It depends on what we're trying to treat. So those are probably like the big ones for the immune system, especially for people who have chronic viral infections, post COVID, or prevention of COVID, or Lyme, one of my favorite peptides would be Thymosin Alpha, which is again, another thymus peptide, which has the ability to sort of increase T-cell activity, allows the body to fight. And in fact, it was one of those peptides that a lot of people got excited about when COVID first came on the scene. And then the FDA pulled it as soon as they heard people were trying to use it to prevent [00:37:00] COVID. So it became really difficult to, to get and there are really only a, a couple of places that we're able to get it. And still sometimes we can't because, because of the FDA, which is an issue. And so peptides are actually like a big issue in that regard. We don't always have them available. The FDA is always reevaluating, you know, whether these are quote unquote safe for human consumption. The, the fact of the matter is many of these peptides have been studied really extensively for many years. And, and you can, you can look at the literature, but there's a lot of fear surrounding it.

And I don't know where that comes from to be honest, but Thymosin Alpha one is a interesting peptide that actually is commercially available and used for, I think it's hepatitis C. It is being used already. So if we know that it's working for hepatitis C, or helping, and in conjunction with other drugs, then obviously it has some antiviral properties, some [00:38:00] antibacterial properties. So I think it's exciting and I just wish it was more readily, readily available. There are some products that have similar structures to that, that can be taken orally. And there's a product called ProBoost that we sell that has part of this thymus protein that can be done, that can be put under your tongue if, you know, if you can't, we can't get the injection or someone want doesn't want to inject. So those are probably like the top ones that I would talk about. Those are, these are the ones that a lot of people may have heard of and may be thinking of.

I'll mention KPV because that's the one that I get asked about a lot because there are a couple of doctors out there who are promoting it for Mast Cell Activation Syndrome and they're saying specifically that it's a mast cell stabilizer because of the structure of it, that it probably has some of that effect. It's called KPV. And it can also be found orally or or, you know, [00:39:00] subcutaneously. And it stands for, KPV stands for lysine, proline, valine. It's literally these three amino acids. There's been a lot of research on that, I believe, like out of Russia for, for many years. And I think, so here's the thing on, on that one. I think I'm not as excited about it as a lot of my colleagues. And I'm gonna be honest, I've tried it in a lot of people. Every once in a while I have someone who does really well on it combined, you know, like, like if I combine, I have a, I have a supplement that has KPV and BPC 1 57 together. It's a really nice combo. And I think maybe that's, there's synergy there and I think it helps. But it's not been as helpful as the other peptides have been. And I'm just not convinced It's as powerful, a massive stabilizer as some of my colleagues believe. I just, I'll leave it at that.

Jill Brook: Yeah. And I think peptides is, is [00:40:00] that one of the things where they kind of warn you don't just like buy what you see on the internet claiming to be a peptide because this is one of those things that has to be from the right source.

Dr. Tania Dempsey: Thank you for mentioning that. That's super important. Because right now there's a, we'll call it a gray market. It's not quite black market, we'll call it gray market. So there are a number of different companies, they're called research companies that are selling peptides online and they say they have a disclaimer that says not for use in humans. They're, they're for use in rats and mice. Okay. That's what they say, 'cause some of them say that and show that they have testing done on the purity of it and all that. Some of them don't. Some of them come from China. So what I have found is, I'll be honest, I'm a guinea pig, so I have tried some of those gray market peptides.

And I will tell you they are [00:41:00] very inconsistent. You know, sometimes I, I I'll say, oh, you know, maybe this vial work, but if I try a different vial, I, it's a different effect or it doesn't work. I, I'm just, I feel very, very uncomfortable recommending it because I just can't stand by that, right?

So, thankfully we have, we have an amazing compounding pharmacy that we work with. And they try to do everything they can to, to provide the peptides that they can provide. And they, you know, they do testing and, and you know, it's made in house. It's not coming from China. But it does need a prescription, right? So you do need a doctor to prescribe these things. I, I feel better and I feel like it's safer if it's coming from a doctor. We also are, are, have a, have a, a pharmacy that we work with that also allows us to sell from our office directly. But, but yeah, I would stay away from the, the gray market right now, 'cause it's a little bit of the wild west [00:42:00] and there may be some products out there that are okay, but how do you know?

Jill Brook: Right. And are there any general like known risks of peptides in general? Or do you have some mast cell patients who react to them or anything like that?

Dr. Tania Dempsey: Like, like anything, right, especially for mast cell patients who have, you know, sensitivities to, to drugs and things. I mean, you can get pure compounds without excipients. But still, right, there's still an effect that, that that compound can have on the body. So there's always a possibility. If you do injections, some of these peptides can cause a local reaction. You know, it can be a little hive or it could be, you know, a little bit of a itchy area. The question is, is that from the, from the injection? Is it from the drug? Is it from the needle? I mean, sometimes we don't know and we, we have to try a few things.

That's not uncommon actually. We didn't talk about this. We can definitely talk about it next time, [00:43:00] but, you know, some of the categories, one of the categories of peptides, which is in the growth hormone category. Growth hormone may promote cancer. So, and I say that may, I mean, I can't say I've seen that, but these are, these are peptides that are either increasing growth hormone production or causing the body to release more growth hormone. And so, you know, there is some theoretical risk of, you know, if you have someone who, well, if you have someone who has active cancer, you, you would never use these. But the question is, if someone has a risk of cancers as something that we have to worry about. And we don't have the answer yet for that.

The other peptides that I mentioned, I think are relatively low risk, right? These are not, like, these are more for the immune system and for healing. It's just a matter of whether people are gonna react or not. I would say BPC 1 57 is probably the best tolerated out of, out of [00:44:00] all that I've seen. But I have patients who don't, you know, who don't tolerate it who, or who tolerate one formulation over another, right. Maybe they tolerate oral, but not subcutaneous or, or subcutaneous, but not oral. But but yeah, but generally these are, are relatively safe, especially if you're doing it under the guidance of a, of a doctor.

Jill Brook: Great. Okay, well we have covered so much and I know you have places you need to be, but I think we're gonna need a part three to this.

So I would like to give everybody the homework, if you're interested in the GLP-1s, they should go watch your masterclass 'cause we could address some of the follow-up questions. We've already received so many follow up questions to that. And it's an amazing masterclass and you're so kind to put all this information out there for free where people can find it. So we'll put a link to that in the show notes. Maybe next time in the part three we can kind of assume that people have watched that.

Dr. Tania Dempsey: [00:45:00] And then we can build, yeah, we can build on it. So much to talk about. And there's actually so much more coming out. Like I feel like every week we have more information, we have more cases, we have more things to share. So I'm kind of excited about some of the things that we've been seeing.

Jill Brook: Wow. Okay. Well this is so exciting. So, okay, so I mean, you covered the red light therapy, the methylene blue, the NanoVi and the peptides. That's a lot. And next time we will do at least the GLP-1s and we'll see what else comes up. And then, and I know you're always on the lookout...

Dr. Tania Dempsey: There'll be something, there'll be something new, I'm sure.

Jill Brook: Dr. Dempsey, thank you so much for taking your time to find these things, try these things. Thanks to your family for being guinea pigs, and thanks for sharing all the knowledge with us, 'cause I know that it, it is just a passion of yours and that you're just always looking at the research and trying to find whatever helps. And I don't think anybody is ahead of you in this space. And so it's, it's just so, so [00:46:00] valuable. Thanks a million.

Dr. Tania Dempsey: Oh, thank you. That means a lot.

Jill Brook: Okay, listeners, that's all for today. We'll be back next week. But until then, may your mast cells be good to you, thank you for listening, and please join us again soon.